- Apples and ice
- Cherry picking
- Back to the future
- In search of…
- The Schneider fallacies
- Denier logic fails
If there are 7 apples in a barrel and someone says “Oh look, there are some apples.”, how many apples are there in the barrel?
If someone else also says “Oh look, there are some apples.”, how many apples are there now?
And if yet a third person does?
If you are age 4 or older you undoubtedly said “7” each time since the number of apples has not changed, that is unless you are a climate change Denier. Apparently Deniers believe that repeatedly reporting on the same 7 items by different sources somehow increases the number to the point that by the third or fourth repetition the barrel is full to the brim with apples.
Think I’m kidding? Read on …
This all relates to that tired Denier canard, the myth that there was a scientific consensus on global cooling and an impending ice age [1] in the 1970s. It is nicely summarized and debunked here: Did scientists predict an impending ice age in the 1970s?
It has been debunked repeatedly as nonsense (here for links) including on Greenfyre’s (More Climate Denier Undead Zombie “Science”). This was also reported in the popular media, including USA Today: Study debunks ‘global cooling’ concern of ’70s, so even the Deniers who believe the popular media is definitive cannot be excused for not knowing this.
In a nutshell, the nutcases claim that there was a scientific consensus on global cooling in the 1970s even though from 1965 to 1979 there were only 7 scientific papers (our metaphoric apples) predicting a cooling vs 44 on global warming.
Despite the fact that this myth has been repeatedly exposed as a lie the Denialosphere continually tries to revive it (eg Skeptic Links). There are several threads to the Deniers attempt to keep this myth alive, all equally fraudulent.
Apples and ice
The most recent attempt to revive the myth comes to us as A New Treasure Trove Of 1970s “Global Cooling” Articles. This “Treasure Trove” is merely a collection of Italian popular media articles (La Stampa) reporting on exactly the same studies & people as all of the other media stories (ie nothing more than another repetition of “Oh look, there are some apples”).
Maurizio Morabito‘s (aka Omniclimate) conclusion on finding this is “the average reader of newspapers would have had all the reasons to believe in a “global cooling consensus” for much of the 1970′s and even later” … no mention that the reader would have been wrong, or that the author apparently hopes to perpetuate this lie by framing the article in this way.
Given such a meaningless collection of articles coupled with a lack of analysis or context and a misleading presentation, Climate Despot, Climate Change Dispatch etc quite naturally ignored it put it on their front page, and the Denialosphere laughed at the stupidity of it breathlessly reposted it. In fact Climate Despot has a resource page of links saying “Oh look, there are some apples.” (as do others) because they know Deniers think that this somehow magically creates more apples.
This desperation to prove a consensus is nothing new for Omniclimate. Last year he touted “World Exclusive: CIA 1974 Document Reveals Emptiness of AGW Scares, Closes Debate On Global Cooling Consensus (And More…)“, in which he states:
“A Study of Climatological Research as it Pertains to Intelligence Problems” will make quite an embarrassing reading, especially for:
- the most obdurate catastro-warmists (when they will notice that almost all AGW scares are a search-and-replace job from “cooling” to “warming”), and
- the history deniers fixated on ‘demonstrating’ that a scientific consensus about Global Cooling in the 1970′s were a ‘myth’(*)
However, if you read the actual document (what a concept!) you discover:
1) It makes no claims of, nor provides evidence for any scientific consensus. As close as it comes is to state “The Western World’s leading climatologists ….” How many that might be, or who they are is never stated (although you can sure guess pretty quickly once you read it. HINT … less than 5 and all American).
2) Notwithstanding claims of being based on all known climate science of the time, it’s pretty much completely based on the work of Reid Bryson, Kutzbach, and their team at the University of Wisconsin, much of it unpublished.
3) There is absolutely nothing there to support either of Omniclimate’s claims
In a Spectator piece he wrote on the same topic Omniclimate makes the unsubstantiated claim that “Mentions of a global cooling consensus appear as far back as 1961.”
WOW! A scientific consensus 6 years before the first scientific paper on the topic was even published … how’s that for science being ahead of itself? or more likely, how’s that for complete nonsense?
OBVIOUS ALERT 1: For the benefit of Omniclimate and any others who are hard of thinking: no matter how many popular media articles or secret reports all based on the same sources that you find , the fact that in the 1970s “the imminent ice age” was fringe science will remain a fact (even when the media are in another language … shockingly, that doesn’t alter reality).
OBVIOUS ALERT 2: We know that there is currently a scientific consensus on anthropogenic climate change thanks to the statements by all of the worlds important scientific organizations. Why don’t you Deniers go and dig up the comparable statements from the 1970s where equivalent institutions (the same ones in most cases) made similar statements about the coming ice age? [yes, we both know they don’t exist – has it ever occured to you to wonder why?]
Cherry picking
Another climate Denier standard technique is to select only specific examples, no matter how rare or unusual, and claim they are the norm. So it is with the Ice Age myth where they report media stories on the ice age myth, but conveniently ignore the popular media stories from the same period about global warming, fairly obviously because it exposes their lie. Some examples:
- The global cooling myth dies again: Climate science 1956: A Plass from the past
- Time Magazine 1953 “Science: Invisible Blanket“
- 1953 Popular Mechanics article about global warming
- July 1959 Carbon Dioxide and Climate in Scientific American
Jeff MacMahon notes that Robinson Jeffers poem predicted global warming in early 1960s and also that in a Dec. 31, 1959 speech Chauncey D. Leake,, American Association for the Advancement of Science, urged tree planting to offset carbon dioxide.
In fact, the very collection of Italian media pieces given as “proof of consensus” by Omniclimate includes:
1. June 22, 1976 (n.145, p.14): “Entro cento anni avremo una era glaciale” – “Within a hundred years we’ll get an ice age” by Umberto Oddone “not all scientists agree””
7. Apr 27, 1978 (n.95, p.9): “Siamo alla soglia dell’era glaciale?” – “Are we on the edge of an ice age?” by Umberto Oddone “Mentions “18 known American climatologists”” [18? wow! if that isn’t proof of a consensus of millions of scientists ….]
10. Feb 19, 1979 (n.48, p.3): “Cambia il nostro clima – Il mondo va verso una nuova era glaciale?” – “Our climate is changing – Is the world going towards an ice age?” by Fabio Galvano […] Mentions most scientists as believing that Earth is getting warmer due to human activities
11. Jan 20, 1982 (n.16): “Tranquilli, non e’ un’altra era glaciale” – “Keep cool, there’s no ice age coming” by James Wagner, National Weather Service
[Emphasis added by me]
tip of the hat to snowhare
As Richard Pauli notes, you can get a nice summary of the ongoing popular media reporting on the science of global warming by using Google Timeline.
Back to the future
Another technique the Deniers use is to misrepresent scientific discussion of the mid-century cooling. From approximately 1940 to the late 1970s there was a global cooling caused by air pollution (aerosols, see mid-century cooling) and scientists naturally discussed it. Those discussions of past cooling are used to claim that the scientists are predicting future cooling, which they are not.
For example, in “Evidence About The 1970s Global Cooling Consensus Keeps Piling Up” Omniclimate (again) claims that:
“yet another Science paper (this time Broecker from August 1975) making it clear that, for a few years up to then, the general consensus among scientists had been that the world was cooling:
[…] the present cooling trend […] the natural climatic cooling which, since 1940, has more than compensated for the carbon dioxide effect[…]
Based on which the author concludes “Time to repeat myself: we have a ‘widely accepted [by the scientific community]…global cooling trend’,”
Once again the author is being totally disingenuous in presenting this discussion of a past trend as evidence of a consensus on a coming ice age (which he implies, but does not actually say). Consensus that the Earth had been cooling for a couple of decades? yes. That the scientific community thought that it would keep cooling? NOT!
In fact here is what Broeker’s abstract actually says:
“If man-made dust is unimportant as a major cause of climatic change, then a strong case can be made that the present cooling trend will, within a decade or so, give way to a pronounced warming induced by carbon dioxide. By analogy with similar events in the past, the natural climatic cooling which, since 1940, has more than compensated for the carbon dioxide effect, will soon bottom out. Once this happens, the exponential rise in the atmospheric carbon dioxide content will tend to become a significant factor and by early in the next century will have driven the mean planetary temperature beyond the limits experienced during the last 1000 years.” [Emphasis added by me]
Far from being a paper supporting the notion of a coming ice age, Broeker is warning of the imminent and serious threat of global warming – he is predicting future warming. Are we supposed to believe Omniclimate somehow missed that bit?
Again, for the benefit of Omniclimate and any others who are hard of thinking, accurately reporting on what has been happening is NOT the same as predicting that it will keep happening.
In search of …
The 1970s television show ‘In Search of ….” included an episode on “The Coming Ice Age” (Episode 23 of Season 2). Actually inclusion in this show should itself be a tip off that the ice age theory was never popular since “the series conducted “investigations” into the controversial and paranormal” (ie fringe science at best). Had the idea been consensus then National Geographic might have covered it, but “In Search of … ” would certainly not have.
Be that as it may, the episode spends most of it’s time talking about the impacts extreme winters have, how and what we know about past glaciations, etc. Very little time is given to talking about whether there is any reason to believe that we are about to trigger another glaciation.
The show does take advantage of the fact that the average person is unaware that we are still in the Quaternary Ice Age, but are currently in an interglacial period. When people say “next ice age” they really mean “next period of glaciation.”
As such, when you ask ‘are we headed into another ice age (ie glaciation) the answer ‘yes’ is true since during an ice age you are either already in a glacial period, or headed towards the next one.
What is not being stated is:
- that would be in 10,000 to 40,000 years or so, and
- only if we continue with historic natural cycles and no other significant factors (eg CO2 levels) change.
So although they do catch a Dr. James Hays saying ” … we are currently heading towards another ice age.” the answer is trivial and irrelevant, even though thought to be true at the time.
The Schneider fallacies
Another thread of the Denier attempt to animate the dead is by misrepresenting the life and work of the climatologist Stephen Schneider. In the early 1970s Schneider was concerned that we could be entering a period of profound cooling due to aerosols in the atmosphere, but soon realized that the power of CO2 to cause warming was far greater.
By misrepresenting Schneider the Deniers hope to convince the public that:
- There was a consensus in the 1970s;
- Schneider was wrong before and is therefore wrong again;
- The case for anthropogenic climate change is the same as the case for global cooling was.
Two of the more popular versions of this are i) from the Denier movie “Not Evil Just Wrong” (debatably an even bigger fraud than ‘The Great Global Warming Swindle‘, if that were possible) and ii) Schneider’s brief appearance in the above mentioned episode of “In Search of … “
1. “There was a consensus in the 1970s”:
In time Schneider became one of the more important and public of the climate scientists who frequently spoke about the current scientific consensus on anthropogenic climate change. By saying that he once advocated for the theory of global cooling the Deniers hope to imply that he was then also an important scientific figure speaking for the scientific community. He wasn’t, in 1971 he had only just finished his PhD and had yet to prove himself as a scientist. To the extent that he said anything at all he was speaking only for himself and he made no claims to the contrary.
2. “Schneider was wrong before and is therefore wrong again”:
In the first place this is an ad hominem tu quoque logical fallacy. Just because someone was wrong in the past about something else does not prove they are wrong now.
Second, Schneider was not “wrong” in that he did not actually say we were entering a new ice age. As will be documented below, Schneider did not believe the science of the time was strong enough to make any reliable prediction one way or another.
It is true, as Schneider is quoted as saying in “Not Evil Just Wrong”, that “I was initially in 1970 and 1971 more worried about cooling … “, and the narrator goes on to say that Schneider published papers about cooling, etc.
But you should notice how the video does not tell us what Schneider actually said in the 1970s, and that all we get is one out of context line from an interview. That would be because this whole thing is a pile of nonsense.
What Schneider was talking about is:
“In 1971, S. Ichtiaque Rasool and Stephen Schneider wrote what may be the most misinterpreted and misused paper in the story of global cooling” They were using models to explore “what if” scenarios for climate, one of which looked at “An increase by a factor of 4 in global aerosol concentrations, “which cannot be ruled out as a possibility,” could be enough to trigger an ice age”
Schneider made no particular claim that we were headed to cooling, just that it was one of the possibilities given an extreme IF/THEN scenario. The money shot? In the above mentioned episode of “In Search of … ” Schneider says ” … we can’t predict with any certainty what’s happening in our own climatic future…”
There you have it, Schneider stating that the science of the day is not good enough to make any reliable predictions with confidence is claimed by Deniers to be proof that he was convinced that we were entering a new ice age.
Third, even if Schneider had said we were entering a new ice age, who cares what he said one way or another? The only thing that ever matters is the scientific evidence. To the extent that Schnieder’s credibility and competence are at issue, the correct question is “why was he wrong?” (if he had been), which brings us to:
3 “the case for anthropogenic climate change is the same as the case for global cooling was.”
i) This one is a bit tricky in that the Deniers are attempting several logic fails at once.
First, there is the focus on what Schneider said or didn’t say, ie trying to make it appear as if climate science is based on the say so of an authority and hence implying that the scientific community is guilty of an appeal to authority fallacy, in which case they seem to believe that discrediting that authority with an ad hominem fallacy is the way to deal with it.
Actually a lie and a stupidity do not cancel each other out; what the Deniers have actually created here is a stupid lie. Even if the lie were true it is still not relevant. If the Deniers had even a remote interest in the truth or understood the concept of integrity then they would ignore Schneider entirely and focus on the only thing that matters, the scientific evidence then and now
ii) To the extent that Schneider was wrong in 1970, he was wrong for the right reasons. Given the state of the science and the range of possible scenarios as they were understood at the time, Schneider’s suggesting that aerosol driven cooling was a real possibility was perfectly reasonable. It was not the popular view, and Schneider himself stated that real predictions were not possible, but he certainly had an empirical case for what he said.
Of course acknowledging that admits two things that the Deniers do not want to admit; a) the science of the day was based on evidence, albeit much more limited and cruder than we have now, and b) that young as he was Schneider was a very competent scientist who went with the facts and what they told him.
As such the whole business of framing the issue as resting on a misrepresentation of Schneider’s conclusion as opposed to the evidence is also a Red Herring fallacy.
iii) the Deniers are attempting to imply that the quality of climate science in 1970 and 2010 are comparable, a false analogy fallacy.
In the 1970s climate science was barely starting out as it’s own sub-discipline. Since then tens of thousands of new studies have been done, decades worth of new data accumulated, hundreds of new techniques and methodologies developed, not to mention huge strides in our understanding of climatic systems. The two are not even remotely comparable.
Scholars and Rogues reports that”Science News was able to interview the author of that 1971 paper, Stanford University climatologist Stephen Schneider, for their article:
“When global warming skeptics draw misleading comparisons between scientists’ nascent understanding of climate processes in the 1970s and their level of knowledge today, “it’s absolute nonsense,” Schneider says. Back then, scientists were just beginning to study climate trends and their causes, and the probability of finding evidence to disprove a particular hypothesis was relatively high. Nowadays, he contends, “the likelihood of new evidence to overthrow the concept of global warming is small. Warming is virtually certain.” “
Which is neither here nor there actually. Even if the state of the science was identical, that one conclusion was wrong (if it had actually existed) does not prove that a different conclusion is wrong. It would still be a false analogy fallacy.
Scary scenarios:
Another prong in the attack on Schneider’s credibility is to quote out of context from his 1989 Discover Magazine interview in which he said: “So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have.“ [Emphasis as it is presented by Deniers]
Although it is not stated, we are to understand and assume that Schneider will lie in order promote his agenda. The truth is that the quote is taken out of the middle of this paragraph:
“On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method, in effect promising to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but — which means that we must include all the doubts, the caveats, the ifs, ands, and buts. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. And like most people we’d like to see the world a better place, which in this context translates into our working to reduce the risk of potentially disastrous climatic change. To do that we need to get some broadbased support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, entails getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. This ‘double ethical bind’ we frequently find ourselves in cannot be solved by any formula. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.” [Emphasis added by me]
In context we see that Schneider is acknowledging the temptations that scientists are prey to, while personally advocating honesty and truth. More on this can be found here, Schneider’s own comments on it here, and his very worthwhile meditations on”The Roles of Citizens, Journalists, and Scientists in Debunking Climate Change Myths” here.
Denier logic fails
This myth is yet another classic example of climate change Deniers chronic uncritical nonthinking; just how many ways is this meme logically false and/or deliberately misleading? who can tell? As usual the Denier case is buried with so many layers of lies and poor thinking that it is difficult to wade through the muck.
In addition to being disingenuous the Deniers are certainly guilty of false premise fallacy (ie premise ‘the media only report on views held by most scientists’), Asserting the Consequent and Hasty Generalization fallacies combined (ie ‘some media report a scientific consensus, therefore there was a scientific consensus’), as well as appeals to authority, cherry picking, ad hominem, Red Herring, and false analogy fallacies … and probably more.
There is so little sign of rationality or actual thought that you wonder how they manage to dress themselves unaided.
In conclusion:
- The whole scientific consensus on an ice age meme is a lie;
- Even if it weren’t a lie, it’s not applicable;
- Even if it were applicable, it’s not relevant.
Other than that, it’s fine.
Unfortunately the meme does have appeal to those seeking a quick and easy way to justify uninformed opinions and confirm existing biases, hence it’s relative popularity with certain people.
Additionally, as ClimateProgress points out, there is also the fact that this meme appears in Chrichton’s book ‘State of Fear’ (aka the climate change Denier Bible). As Deniers know, if you can’t trust popular science fiction books[2] for your facts, what can you trust?
The 1970s ice age myth debunked
Climate Change anatomy of a myth
“In the 70s, They said there’d be an Ice Age“
1958 – Global Warming – It’s NOT newly known
- Climate Science 1956: A Blast from the Past
- The global cooling mole
- The great global cooling myth
- Killing the myth of the 1970s global cooling scientific consensus
- A New Ice Age (The Global Warming Debate)
- Cooling climate ‘consensus’ of 1970s never was: Myth often cited by global warming skeptics debunked
see also:
[1)When they say “next ice age” they really mean “next glaciation”, because technically we are already in the Quaternary Ice Age, but are currently in an interglacial period.
This warming trend has been particularly pronounced during the pre-monsoon month of May, which is now on average 4.9 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it was in the late 1970’s. The Indian Ocean warmed to a much lesser extent during this period, enhancing the temperature gradient between the ocean and the land. Earth Gauge
We give our consent every moment that we do not resist.
IMAGE CREDITS:
The Massive Glacier at Dusk by Stuck in Customs
Glacier River by Stuck in Customs
The oldest glacier By JennyHuang
Argentina – El Calafate, Perito Moreno Glacier By vtveen
Ice cave in Glacier Gray by Tom Holub
Matusevich Glacier By NASA Goddard Photo and Video NASA Goddard Space Flight Center
Traces of the Ice age By Bernt Rostad
Comment Policy
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[…] Loses The Plot 20 11 2010 I’ve just been honored by Greenfyre dedicating his very first blog in a long time to a couple of blog posts in my very successful “1970s Global Cooling Consensus” […]
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Omni…whatever it is, shows his true denier character and obvious lack of understanding of simple English.
Here, Omni… I will explain it to you in simple English.
No one was denying that the Earth was going through a cooling period mid century. Mitchell never claimed that we were heading into an imminent ice age. That is where you deniers confuse facts with your made up lies.
Too bad that you are so selfish that you do not spend time undoing all the rubbish you have posted that is lapped up by other ignorant deniers.
You are pathetic.
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Thanks, greenfyre, for yet another excellent read.
I made the mistake of visiting Morabito’s and rogerthesurf’s blogs for a few minutes (all I could do to endure the stupid for that long); ugh!…must..shower…
I find it hard to believe that people smart enough to run a blog lack the intellectual chops to comprehend AGW. The only thing that makes any sense is that these people are either:
1. In serious intellectual denial
2. Intellectually dishonest
Morabito I put in category 2, rogerthesurf in category 1.
Thanks for all your do in combating the rising tide of denial.
The Yooper
This comment has been moved to “Dunces Corner: This is what Denialism looks like” for violating this sites comments policy and meeting the criteria stated on that page.
This comment has been moved to “Dunces Corner: This is what Denialism looks like” for violating this sites comments policy and meeting the criteria stated on that page.
Incidentally, Christopher Columbus was wrong. He based his voyage on a too-small estimate of the size of the earth. Those who argured against him used Eratoshenes’s (200 B.C.) surprisingly correct estimate. Columbus would have perished (not enough supplies) if he hadn’t discovered a New World halfway across.
Skeptics want to think of themselves as being out in front of the science, with Galileo. When actually in their refusal to accept the latest science, they are on the side of the opposition to scientific progress.
There have been attempts to control scientists, but they were never in control of ‘The Science’. The Catholic Church could harass Galileo, but not the scientist’s in northern Europe. Stalin & Lysenko. The Scopes monkey trial. George W. Bush bureaucrats changed wording in some climate papers. Currently there is talk by House Republicans of what they’ll do in 2011.
The more obvious flat earth analogy would make Arrhenius the counterpart of Eratoshenes
Eventually there was the accumulation of more and more data, on an increasing number of fronts, in support of CO2 climate change. Pivotal, for me, would be the fifties CO2 research leading to the development of heat sinking missiles. This should also be respected by skeptics, since nobody can doubt the intentions of the Department of Defense.
Coupling this with a measure of the magnitude of the effect (despite its low concentration), in that CO2 is necessary to get the earth out of an ice age. Its my understanding that this is established climate science. That without CO2, the earth would be about 28oC colder, and would be a frozen snowball earth.
(In an answer to a similar situation, Richard Lindzen, in his Nov 17 House testimony, said 2 1/2 oC?)
Skeptics try to blow up a little (7 paper) interest in global cooling during a time of global cooling, when the real argument is the other-way-round. Concerns about CO2 global warming first developed before (say, 1950-1985) the globe started to warm. Climate research, and global temperatures, have increased ever since.
Skeptic climate scientists aren’t in the avant garde. They’re rump conservatives arguing from yesterday’s positions. And dependent upon an ever increasing conspiracy theory.
Neither I nor the IPCC are saying that the debate is 100% over. Personally, I’ll conflate this percentage with the ratio of publishing climate scientists: 97%. And suggest that climate skeptics should have a proportionate duty to be RESPONSIBLE, given the global consequences of being wrong.
Time will tell. There’ll be no place for skeptics in a future of rising temperatures. They cannot continue like
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
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RTS, you should have given up half way through your first post, then people would just think that you didn’t know much about science. Instead, you continued for another 2 and one half posts which showed that you are not only ignorant about science but you are ideologically motivated for your nonsense about AGW.
Why do you persist in showing how much of a dishonest, arrogant and selfish person you are?
AGW is happening, science shows it. Here is a simple empirical proof for you;
1. It has been known and shown experimentally for over 100 years that the radiative properties of CO2 make it a green house gas.
2. It has been empirically shown that CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere, thus increasing the green house effect (causing the Earth to be warmer that it was before the increase).
3. It has been empirically shown by carbon isotope fingerprinting that a large part of the increase is from the burning of fossil fuels.
Putting these three empirically derived findings together and any intelligent and scientifically literate person can see that AGW has been empirically proven. Now, are you going to admit at last that you can trust the scientists with their results or are you going to continue to show that you lack simple intelligence, are scientifically illiterate as well as being arrogant and selfish as previously noted?
rogerthesurf
“I dont refer to it as a panic because it wasn’t for most people, mainly because, unlike AGW, the common person was not being blamed for it. So why worry about something you can’t change?”
Global warming has been consensus for 20 years, after decades of intense research by thousands of scientists.
How does that compare with a small number of scientists hypothesizing about cooling?
AGW is a theory, after extremely rigorous peer review. The cooling idea was merely a hypothesis.
No one is blaming the common person. Thats just right wing talk show talking point nonsense. You know, the usual fear mongering. That’s something Sarah Palin would say, and probably has. Alerting people, that energy and resource usages are going to have to change if the earth is to sustain us, is not blaming anyone.
I understand that it may feel like that to some people. Calls to watch your carbon footprint seem invasive maybe. But if you want to see invasive government actions, wait too long to mitigate emissions, deforestation etc. After a few decades more of doing nothing, last ditch desperate efforts will be mandated. Marshall law will be common worldwide. By then it will be obvious that we should have acted even before now. Be careful what you ask for.
How about responsibility, a favorite attribute for conservatives. We are all responsible for our actions. Actions have consequences. Those powerful forces who seek to confuse Americans about global warming for the sake of power and economic interests, and to continue on our business as usual path? Them I blame.
It would be a lot easier for people to accept things like watching their carbon footprint, when our government and economy has gotten on board with clean energy and climate change mitigation. – improved grid, more choices of efficient transportation, better energy efficiency, making fossil fuel prices reflect something a little closer to reality, etc.
Don’t forget, fossil fuels not only have huge externalized costs, they are also subsidized at twice as much as renewable energy in the U.S.
Fossil fuels can only get more expensive. Clean energy will get less expensive.
And since the cooling idea was based on human emitted aerosols as a forcing, and since AGW is based on human emitted GHG as a forcing, in both cases there is something we could do about it. In fact, we did do something about aerosols, though the motivation was acid rain and smog, not global cooling. And look! It didn’t hurt too much did it? Notice how much cleaner urban air is? Less acid rain?
We cut back on CFCs and the ozone layer improved. And guess what? We did both of them with cap and trade.
(not that I think it’s the best formula for carbon pricing – I like the Clear Act idea of tax and dividend to the public. The majority of revenue from the carbon tax would go to the public, with some for developing renewable energy)
A certain amount of warming is already guranteed at this point. Managing to adapt to even that much warming will be no easy task. Gambling on more is like playing Russian Roulette with a revolver with only one empty cylinder. [1]
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I see RTS proved me half-right…Should have added a 3rd category: Intellectually Challenged (i.e., Logic-Fail).
The Yooper
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Roger,
You are what is commonly known as a ‘tone troll’. You have nothing substantive to say, you merely vomit up science-free nonsense and empty rhetoric until someone uses words that you perceive to be less than civil, at which point you begin wailing about the lack of civility and how it means every piece of science, evidence and logic fed to you is magically refuted.
Your ignorance of climate change science is apparent to anyone who has spent more than a few minutes reading the basics. And, as Greenfyre rightly points out, you keep making claims and broadcasting ignorance that any child with access to a search engine could refute in a few minutes.
Pro tip: read more, write less – and do try to develop some intellectual honesty by responding to the science, evidence and arguments presented to you, instead of producing these tedious, passive / aggressive demonstrations of pissantry.
RTS I’m afraid that as well as being scientifically illiterate you are just plain illiterate. You, and I might add, all the deniers that I have come across, do not understand the meaning of the term “ad hominem”. When you come across words that you obviously do not like, probably because they are an accurate reflection of your character and behaviour, you shout out “ad hominem attack”.
Well, it is not an ad hominem attack when the words used (denier, liar, etc.) are an accurate reflection of that person’s behaviour. So when people refer to you in those terms they are being honest and accurate. You are the one who is wrong and dishonest.
I see you have not responded to my comments offering empirical proof of AGW. Is that because I am correct and you once again have been shown to be both uninformed and wrong?
[…] I have been attempting to conduct a reasonable conversation at https://greenfyre.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/the-1970s-ice-age-9-myth/ […]
Bluerock,
You may notice that I have never managed to get a reasonable answer from greenfyre to date so I really have had scant chance to actually discuss anything of substance.
Cheers
Roger
http://www.rogerfromnewzealand.wordpress.com
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Roger,
You do realise everyone can read the exchange? We can all see that you have been spoon fed a great deal while offering nothing in return – apart from whining about tone and vomiting up denier dreck.
You may think you are original and clever, but really you are not. You’re just another tedious Denier, not unique, not special. We’ve seen your script a thousand times before.
IPCC WG1. Refute it. Submit it for peer review. Collect Nobel Prize, world fame, adulation and untold riches. I’m going to stick my neck out and predict that won’t happen. I’m going to predict that you will continue producing tedious drivel on the internet. Does that sound right to you?
P.S. You can reply to comments instead of just tacking your response at the bottom. Click the word that says ‘Reply’ next to a comment. If nothing else, you’ll have learnt this much from your visit here. 😉
P.S. You’re neatly described by Mr. Rabett: http://rabett.blogspot.com/2010/04/advanced-trolling-101.html
If you wanted to improve yourself and join in grown-up debate, you would read it and adjust your behaviour accordingly. I suspect that won’t happen, because then you would be forced to respond to the science, evidence and logic that you have no response to.
This comment has been moved to “Dunces Corner: This is what Denialism looks like” for violating this sites comments policy and meeting the criteria stated on that page.
Ps. However, I do believe that we have to concern ourselves in sustainability for the health of humans and also this planet, and the other living organisms and animals who we should protect. Also food production and water conservation.
Quality of life is important. I feel we are becoming too technical rather than pragmatic and natural. Values are drifting from what we need to what we ‘want’. But I feel developed countries should become more ‘green’ in as much, that energy supplies must be affordable for the lowest income person. And we should stop using electricity to cool and heat when not necessary, but adapt naturally as we did years ago to our natural environment, rather than the opposite.
This involves electricity supply. The life blood of all domestic environs that third world countries have not completely yet been supplied with. In Australia, energy prices for electricity have exploded, to a point that people are not using heating or cooling as they did. Now those in UK and Northern America might not appreciate but in parts of Australia our temps during our winter do plunge to minus. (minus 11.2 this past winter in Armidale NSW) Wood was a heater now outlawed or too expensive to buy. Now gas or electricity for heating. And electricity prices have over the last two years increased 60 percent.
I personally coming from UK, when there was no central heating, believe those Australians in temperate areas should adapt naturally. Stop becoming hot house flowers
by donning thermal underwear, and use the sun to naturally heat one’s house in winter. One can adapt, but
then when it is an extremely cold night, go to bed with an electric blanket and watch TV. My house (brick and tile)
never gets lower than 10 C. I remember in Lincolnshire in UK in 1964, my baby son’s bedroom registered 28 F inside during a cold snap. (WE had a overnight coal fire and immersion heater that we opened in the linen cupboard, next door to our two bedrooms to generate some heat!) He was in his cot, with full thermal underwear, mittens, socks and bootees, woollen cap, a jumps suit, a sleeping bag with hood and a hot water bottle, plus blankets. He survived. 28 F is below freezing, and in the morning as usual, condensation froze inside as Jack Frost patterns. We survived. We adapted.
Now Lincoln is or was a temperate region in comparison to further North and Scotland. Even in Armidale, Northern Tablelands NSW it is not unusual to find icicles on taps or the dog’s water bowl or fish pond with l inch ice on it in the mornings. Sometimes not melting for a day if the temps nor sun come out. (You break the ice on the pond to allow the fish to breathe!).
We need to become more energy conservative but not to stop global warming as it is a con, but just to establish that should this planet get cooler we can survive in colder
temperatures.
> …my baby son’s bedroom registered 28 F inside during a cold snap.
You left an infant in a room, on his own at -2C?
> He survived.
In spite of his parents’ eye-watering idiocy it would seem.
> …global warming as it is a con…
The con is the one that you have fallen for, perpetrated by the Kochs, ExxonMobil, et al. You have swallowed the propaganda in preference for the science.
@Bush bunny you are 100% right
Thank you Andrew, and God Bless, and don’t throw away
your Ugg Boots, yet? LOL
Pat from Oz
Blue Rock, you didn’t read it. Below 32 F wasn’t unusual
in UK before central heating. And we rugged up. And if you think I am a dunce you should have asked me what my experience and academic qualifications were/are? But we adapted gradually, during cold periods, and were not hot house flowers then. My son, now a healthy 46 year old, was in the same room as us. I see that this site is
prejudicial, and I will no longer subscribe to it, if my posts
are being judged as dunce.
I live in Australia and here we have night time temps minus
regularly in Northern NSW, Tasmania, parts of SA and WA. Queensland and the NT have their own tropical and monsoon areas of course. These are generally restricted to higher altitudes. Frost, snow, hail, you name it. However, generally when the sun comes out temperatures increase. We do have fluctuating temps that UK doesn’t suffer in one day.
When I lived in Bermuda, one night’s temps got down to 39 F the coldest I had experienced in years since leaving UK.
Did I feel cold, yes, because I was used to Sydney temps
and yes, we had a wood fire during their winter, and hadn’t had time to adapt physically.
> I see that this site is
prejudicial…
Yes, prejudicial in favour of real science and against nonsense and disinformation. The same science as confirmed by every national science academy of every industrialised country on the planet.
In comparison, you evidently get your ‘science’ from any sideshow blog that tells you what you want to hear, e.g. the risible non-scientist, Joanne Nova.
You’re the equivalent of someone who is told by 98 doctors that your son is ill and requires treatment, but you listen to 2 doctors, a few dentists and a weatherman who say he’s OK.
> …I will no longer subscribe to it, if my posts are being judged as dunce.
That is certainly my judgement – but you could alleviate that by reading some real science instead of the nonsense you’re absorbing elsewhere. Here are some starters for you:
– http://climate.nasa.gov/keyIndicators/
– http://royalsociety.org/Climate-Change/
– MIT Forecast for 21st Century Climate – 5.1C median warming by 2100: http://globalchange.mit.edu/pubs/abstract.php?publication_id=2003
– American Physical Society: “Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth’s climate. … The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.” http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/07_1.cfm
Greenfyre, I think you don’t like an alternative argument.
Rogerthesurf, you are wasting your time on this site, go to
where real scientific argument and data with qualified scientists are engaging in worthwhile argument.
Like Joanne Nova’s site.
Bushbunny,
Actually I enjoy this. I cant believe these people are prepared to make such absolute pillocks of themselves in a public forum.
Perhaps they are really “deniers” in disguise engaging in some reverse psychology.
Cheers
Roger
http://www.rogerfromnewzealand.wordpress.com
Joanne Nova? Seriously?
Start here to learn about Joanne Nova and her academic skills:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/02/global-warming-denial.html
And then you try to use the same Appeal to Authority…
I think yet another University should be sued for not doing its job properly. Really, Bush Bunny, if you and/or Roger have an academic degree, you better get your money back. Neither of you have clearly learned critical thinking and proper argumentation.
Cheers folks and don’t throw away your Ugg Boots
Bush Bunny signing out
Roger – O/T I cried about news about the NZ mine disaster,
especially learning that one 17 year old miner was on his first
day of work. It still upsets me.
Personally, I can’t be bothered right now to learn my posts
have been put in the dunce section.
Not with my academic and your experience/academic qualifications and being labelled ‘illiterate’. [1]
All you and I are doing is stopping the belief that the IPCC
were right and this planet is going out of control re AGW. [2]
No one seems to understand the UHI effect. [3]
Cheers
Bush bunny.
—-
Don’t bb’s comments deserve the dunce corner section? No-one understands the UHI????? Scientists the world over slap their foreheads and go , “D’oh! How’d we get that one wrong?!” [1]
Anyway, welcome back. I marvel at how you do this at all. May I recommend printing off the following Edward Abbey quote and pasting it on your fridge or bathroom mirror. I take it to heart–I’m a wildlife biologist/ecologist and sometimes despair at what we’re doing even if climate was stable, and it seems no matter what we publish, televise, fight against, it happens anyway.
If the blogging is burning you out again, step back and enjoy what is there, what we have now, so you can come back renewed, or try different things (which, I hope, will include continued blogging, but if it doesn’t, we’d all understand).
—-
> …I’m a wildlife biologist/ecologist and sometimes despair at what we’re doing even if climate was stable…
I’m a layperson, although probably well-read by most people’s standards, and it horrifies me what we are doing to the planet. It’s obscene – and most people don’t want to know, don’t care or deny it is happening.
If Greenfyre is anything like me, it’s near-impossible to “step back”.
I hear you, BlueRock. It is near-impossible. Some days I’m convinced we’re just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. In my case, I get to work in remote locations (fly-in by helicopter usually, or airstrips in the high Arctic), and those are the places I can “step back” for a bit as human impact is minimal there. I can pretend for a while that the rest of the world doesn’t exist, and I come out of the summer field season feeling much better (then I catch-up on what has gone on in the rest of the world in that summer……..sigghhh……)
We do need to step back though…we’re not much good if we burn out quickly or pickle ourselves into an early grave.
Incidentally, a cofounder of Greenpeace, the late Bob Hunter, gave a talk in my class in 1993. Someone asked him how he copes with hearing bad news all the time. He replied, By using up a good part of my liver. We laughed. Perhaps we should have wept.
> Some days I’m convinced we’re just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Yes, I’ve used that expression – and some are drinking gin and laughing it up as the bow slips beneath the waves!
> He replied, By using up a good part of my liver.
Heh. I can drink to that!
> We laughed. Perhaps we should have wept.
I take some solace that pretty much all of the clever, compassionate people get it – so I know I’m on the right side. We just need to keep pushing back against the others who want to drag all of us over the precipice, just to fuel their immediate gratification.
Keep fighting the good fight! 🙂
P.S. I don’t suppose it’s news to you, but this image should horrify / motivate anyone in to action: http://i.imgur.com/4gPdy.png
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