BPSDB Disempowering ourselves again
“It’s unlikely that the U.S. is going to take serious action on climate change until there are observable, dramatic events, almost catastrophic in nature, that drive public opinion and drive the political process in that direction,” Stavins, director of Harvard’s Environmental Economics Program in Cambridge, Massachusetts, said today in an interview in Bloomberg’s Boston office.“
Disaster Needed for U.S. to Act on Climate Change, Harvard’s Stavins Says
The argument that people will not do anything until it starts to affect them has probably been around for all of history. Certainly it is an old one with respect to climate change. The most recent iteration by Harvard economist Robert Stavins.
I was not able to find much response to Stavins in the climate science blogosphere, perhaps because we have repeatedly been here before. However, there were two which illustrate several of the false assumptions that tend to get associated with this argument:
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What do we mean by “affect”?
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“Act” or react?
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Why catastrophe? Why Wait?
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Let’s start by noting that what is being referred to is what is known as “trigger events” in discussions of political activism. Trigger events are things that spike public awareness of a particular issue, for good or ill.
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af·fect [v. uh-fekt; n. af-ekt] –verb
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Unfortunately every discussion of the “they won’t act until” argument and climate change immediately assumes that by “affect them” it is meant that climate change itself must directly affect people through floods or heat waves etc before they will take action.
Where does that come from? the assumption that we are only “affected” by the direct experience of the physical consequences of climate change? On one level I do understand it in the sense that this is usually implicitly stated in the sub-text.
On another level I don’t get it since these arguments are written by and for people who have been affected by the scientific facts. We have been affected by something other than a direct impact of climate change and are acting as a consequence, QED.
Now that huge numbers have not been affected similarly, or were affected but are not acting is trivially obvious. That education or scientific facts are the only possible non-direct affecter seems to be an unexamined assumption, unexamined and obviously false.
Here are some images from the civil rights struggles of the 1950s and 60s. These and others profoundly affected the people who saw them even though those people were not directly affected by racism in the ways that we would cite as relevant to the argument that “people won’t act unless …”
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People were affected by these images and they acted.
In the 1960s the United States conducted a war in Vietnam that devastated the population there, but largely did not directly affect most US citizens.
As you watch this video about a Buddhist monk self-immolating in protest, listen carefully to Roger Hilsman, the State Department’s Director of Intelligence and Research, describe the political consequences of this action.
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Here are a couple more images from the Vietnam War that profoundly affected people who were, in the terms of the “until it affects them” argument, unaffected by the war.
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For many more examples see Images That Changed The World ? or just google variations of that phrase.
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act [akt] –verb (used without object)
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In his piece Can Catastrophe Galvanize Action on Global Warming? Keith Kloor confuses the reaction of inaction with not acting (ie they didn’t act, they reacted). To get there he defers to a number of authorities who cite various catastrophes where the public has not taken action, such as the financial crises and floods.
They are quite correct in noting that for the most part people did nothing that we could detect about these particular crises. What I want to ask is what exactly did the average person think they could do about these particular crises? They didn’t act, they reacted, largely by becoming more frightened and angry.
My point is that you will only see people act if they think there is anything useful that they can do. We have very successfully convinced the public that when it comes to financial policy they are not merely insignificant, they are irrelevant.
As for the flooding example given, there again it is framed as a national policy issue such that the measure of people taking action is changes in legislation and policy. These are not the only possible courses of action for people, but if it is your only measure of action than the conclusion is “no one acted.”
Even in a discussion of public disengagement the message is framed as to reinforce the irrelevance of public engagement. In this environment a catastrophe will not rally people who believe that there is nothing they can do, it will merely mire them further in despair.
In On Waiting for Catastrophe Michael Tobis expresses pessimism for the perfectly logical reason that there is a 40 year lag between when we start acting and when we can reasonably expect to see benefits from those actions. As such, if the needed events of sufficient scale to be motivating do not occur for another decade or more we will be far to far down the road to total catastrophe to make a difference. Fair enough as an argument for why we can’t wait, but it is presented more as a eulogy under the assumption that we have to wait.
Further, he goes on to say “As for what individuals can do, the sad answer is, very little.” This belief in individual powerlessness is another reason that we cannot afford to wait for a catastrophe. For people who have been led to believe that they are powerless and insignificant the worst possible thing would be to add an even greater, more intractable challenge that they must confront. Given that, they won’t act. What little remains of their humanity will simply curl up and die.
Actually all social movements are made up solely of individuals. Thus it has ever been and thus it will ever be. They don’t come in any other flavour. Everything that was ever done was done by individuals. Sometimes alone, sometimes in organized groups, but nonetheless groups of individuals.
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pro·ac·tive [proh-ak-tiv] –adjective
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Getting back to what Stavins said “… until there are observable, dramatic events, almost catastrophic in nature, that drive public opinion …”. Why catastrophic? Absolutely no question about “observable”, and “dramatic” is good if possible, but why catastrophic?
And why wait?
Trigger events can be unplanned or natural events such as Chernobyl, or human caused/driven events such as the Selma March. The images above from the civil rights struggle were all trigger events, and they were all planned and organized by the civil rights activists. They were observable and dramatic, but only catastrophic for the regressives who wanted to maintain the status quo of racism.
As the images below attest, given the belief that they can make a difference, that they do matter, people will stand up unarmed in front of tanks and guns and every threat of the most violent suppression. Often they win.
These pictures are of individuals. Every person in every picture is one person who said no to the status quo. They did not get together and have a secret ballot to decide to go as a group. They could have stayed home. They didn’t. No force other than their own hearts compelled them to act. Compelled them as individuals.
“As for what individuals can do, the true answer is that they can shake the world by its roots. They can topple governments, free slaves and get the vote. To paraphrase O’Brien, they can realize those qualities of dignity and courage that are the true standards of the human spirit.
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I know you have seen this before, now watch it again.
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And then tell me again that there is nothing one individual can do. That there is nothing that we can do now that is observable and dramatic and that will affect others. Tell me again that we must wait.
Obviously most of us will never be asked to do something as dramatic or risky as the people in these pictures and videos have done. But we are asked to do something. Not by the State, or by our employers, or by our neighbours. We are asked by our hearts.
When you refuse to take a private automobile because there is a perfectly good, albeit mildly inconvenient public transit option, it affects people. When you suggest that group meals be had at venues that offer a vegetarian option, it affects people. When you seriously try to eat locally, it affects people. When you keep your home temperature at a perfectly comfortable temperature that is significantly different from the norm, it affects people.
When you go on a hunger strike, it affects people. When your friends and family see you being led away by police at a non-violent action, it affects people. When they can only see you for 20 minutes a week through 3 cm of bullet proof glass, it affects people.
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Of course in most cases just one person doing these things makes little difference, except to those affected. However, those people are affected, they witness that acting is possible. Some will even consider the possibility of doing so themselves. Some will do so.
Two people make slightly more difference, but then you never get to two without the one. Three, 50, 500, 10,000; at some point it is suddenly making a huge difference and far more quickly than any had imagined, but it never jumps to a million, or 10,000, or 1,000 all at once. It always starts with the one, and the one needs another one to make two, and those two need another one to make it three …
We are activists. “They” won’t act until they are affected by observable, dramatic events, so what are we waiting for?
Lets give them what they need.
We give our consent every moment that we do not resist.
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Bring on the discussion, Mike! What particularly miffs me is that so many people refuse to do, or even to contemplate doing, even those things that are perfectly legal and safe to do. David Smith commenting at Climate Progress sums it up perfectly well:
(I replied, “Mostly because ‘we’ are spineless — and the other two problems stem from there.”)
It seems to me many self-proclaimed ‘activists’ get scared crapless when, say, Marc Morano goads people into sending hate mail to them. Can we really expect such people to embrace (horrors!) civil disobedience?
— frank
Thanks Sailrick!
Greenfyre, it’s called ‘Saving the Bay’. 😉
Seems there are some short segments online Youtube but the series is apparently still in rotation for fundraising.
I like your math: upping the anti with ‘each one teach one’.
You never really know what will finally get the public’s attention. That one rap video, probably has already reached more people than all the peer reviewed science they have done.
A teacher in Corvallis Texas did a video that went viral.
So many died in Vietnam, but that one death had an incredible impact. (I am not ready to try that out.)
The momentum to do something about global warming is building and action will occur. Unfortunately it will not be soon enough to avoid some really unpleasant climate disruption. Hopefully it will occur before we cause changes that are unsurvivable.
I largely agree with Stavins:
http://ourchangingclimate.wordpress.com/2011/05/04/sense-of-urgency-needed-to-get-political-action-on-climate-change/
That is certainly not an argument that we *should* wait until some dramatic and/or catastrophic event unfolds. It is merely a belief that collectively not much action will occur until the s**t hits the fan.
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Bart is rather obviously correct about Stavins’ meaning.
I got an idea, why don’t we take the names of deniers and “I won’t act” people down.
Start carbon-taxing them as we do to all others, if we are wrong, they get their money back plus 20% interest per year. If THEY are wrong, we shoot them.
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Because if they are wrong (or in denial), they were putting our livelihood at risk. Whereas if we are wrong, we can only be accused of wasting their money. Our positions and our results are nothing fair, so the punishment for being wrong should not be either.
YOU? Central Planning Man!!!
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Ooh, fact-free, off-topic denialist garbage — just what NikFromNYC needs.
Next!
— frank
It’s like they think they will win some special prize for being a tool on the Internet.
Wierdo.
When all else fails, just try a blanket accusation with a lot of generic labels. Fact free indeed.
However, I don’t think dishing insults diminishes the playground feel of the stupids – it lowers the discourse to their level (but I’m doing it here, so who am I to cast the first stone?). I’m not talking about the Greenfyre response which is brief and to the point, but our general piling on which they will claim proves their point.
This is where you made your mistake:
“On another level I don’t get it since these arguments are written by and for people who have been affected by the scientific facts. We have been affected by something other than a direct impact of climate change and are acting as a consequence, QED.”
But we HAVEN’T acted, have we? We are ALL doing lip service to the “facts” that we have accepted (by and large). [1]
I am the ONLY person I know that gave up driving for example. Haven’t driven in 7 years. I stay home a lot more then your average anybody as a result. [2]
I’m not naive enough to believe that this has or will make a difference, but I am unique enough to know that my actions are exceedingly rare.
The scientific arguments did change my behavior — on this one point. But they did not change my behavior on many other points (such as total carbon footprint, levels of consumption, energy, etc.) which therefore fully demonstrates that “we haven’t acted” as we should. [3]
Not even me and I daresay, not even you. [4]
We will not act until we are directly, and PERSONALLY affected. That should be plain as day.
Anybody including yourself that continues to make the false claim that we are all acting and making an impact has rocks in their head. We’ve lost ten thousands time more ground (at an accelerating rate) then we have “gained”. [5]
And it will remain that way, a net loss ten thousand fold more then any possible gains because we categorically refuse to STOP what we are doing.
Desdemona has tons of verifiable proofs of this very fact, how we are losing the oceans, the soils, the forests, even the deserts to the onslaught of humanity. All the so-called “progress” that is being made is in reality lip service. We are NOT gaining ground, we are losing ground.
It is actually a disservice to all of your readers to claim otherwise, because it simply is not the truth.
There is now less “everything” despite our so-called ‘best efforts’ and “commissions” and committees and environmental groups and on and on and on. This is a simple fact and should not be ignored — which makes your claims misleading at best and disingenuous at worst. [6]
Tell the truth — and tell it like it really is. You’ve attempted to weave a tapestry that “we can make a difference” but even in the very examples you gave we DIDN’T. Not really. We’ve simply got another war. We’ve got less freedoms. We’ve got more censorship.
You also said that they “often win”. Hogwash. If that were actually TRUE — then we would not be in this predicament. Just the opposite is true — we most often LOSE.
All these efforts are simply holding actions AT BEST — temporary stop-gap measures that don’t actually stop anything. We cannot stop anything because of the simple fact that we cannot even stop ourselves.
Don’t believe this? Then stop yourself. Prove it can be done. In less then 24 hours if you are honest you will quickly realize that you can’t. You’ll have continued your consumption, your waste of energy, resources, valuable planetary assets to maintain your standard of living and comfort level. You stay alive BECAUSE of your wasteful lifestyle, you are now entirely dependent upon this. [7]
Humans refuse to go backwards and live in low energy, low impact conditions, otherwise they’d have done this already en masse. Sure, a few have, but so what? It’s not enough and few follow. We simply won’t do it and we convince ourselves of the following: we don’t have to, let someone else do it, it’s not necessary at this time, we can technofix our way out of this, etc., etc., anything but actually DOING IT.
Like your site, like your article, but don’t join the ranks of the “champions” of illusion that we’re going to change the world through what has already proven to be a total failure.
If you do what you’ve always done, why would you ever expect any different results? [8]
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(Since I don’t have an email … delete this, but:
McI: http://climateaudit.org/2011/05/23/climategate-documents-confirm-wegmans-hypothesis/
Bad timing, given today’s:
http://www.desmogblog.com/mashey-report-reveals-wegman-manipulations
It’s Keith Kloor (not Kevin).
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More later, and it sounds like subsequent posts will present an opportunity for that, but for now here’s a study press release I think needs to be taken into account:
This is all too congruent with what Stavins said.
Steve Bloom:
I’m not so sure. Stavins’ statement is a rather strong one:
The CRED studies however point to a weaker conclusion — that the weather of the moment is but one of the factors influencing people’s opinions:
As always, we need to look at the whole picture.
— frank
Sure, Frank, but I do believe they’re manifestations of the same basic problem. It would be interesting indeed to see what effect this spring’s weather has on this attitude.
This describes another level of the problem (and see the link below as well).
Mike and Sailrick, see here. The state plan is, of course, eminently reasonable.
-=OBEY CLIMATE COPS=-

-=OBEY CLIMATE CRIMINALS=-

Nik, what are you on? Seroquel?
On a seat in front of his computer, in his underwear, in the basement of his parents’ house, I expect, Marco, in addition to whatever meds are involved.
It’s all a konspiracy! Nik sees the trooth. Them there fancy-smancy scientists is lyin’ to y’all.
(giggle)
Here’s a much more fact-based diagram, by yours truly:
(I guess many of you have seen it, so this is mainly for the benefit of lurkers who may mistake NikFromNYC for ‘reason’.)
— frank
this is genius, I’m using it!
I was just IP banned (leads to Google, my ex-girlfriend’s web site) for posting this to DeSmogBlog.com:
“I am neither a scientist nor a historian, and I have no intention in this book of jumping in to the actual science “debate.” ” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“I spend too much money on art, fine wine, skis, and high-end bicycle parts, and I am in recovery from my habit of buying luxury cars.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Few people want to give up their car or spend money retrofitting their their home heating system if they believe that scientists are still arguing over the truth of global warming.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Nobody wants to be the only person on the block who is spending money to repower their their heating system. No one wants to give up their car, change their diet, or limit their consumption if their efforts will be rendered irrelevant by the consumption patterns of those around them.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Someone who is highly trained in rhetoric can argue any question from any angle.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“In his 1928 book The Business of Propaganda, Bernays put into words something that every demagogue in history probably knew instinctively. He wrote, “If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, is it not possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without their knowing about it? The recent practice of propaganda has proved that it is possible, at least up to a certain point and within certain limits.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels praised another of Bernay’s books, ‘Crystallizing Public Opinion,’ as having been helpful in crafting the campaign against German Jews.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“It might be worth contemplating the slippery slope that faces people in public relations who forget their duty to society – the Public Relations Society of America’s caution to practice “professionally, with truth, with accuracy, fairness, and responsibility to the public.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Boykoff and Boykoff telegraphed their point about the mainstream media in the title of their paper “Balance as Bias.” Journalists in the modern age find it all but impossible to stay up to speed on every issue, especially every issue of science. To protect themselves, they very frequently fall back on the notion of balance: they interview one person on one side of an issue and one person on the other. There is even a fairly common conceit in North American newsrooms that if both sides wind up angry about the coverage, the reporter in question probably got the story about right.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“I have never liked the term “spin doctor,” and I hate the definition – at least I hate that someone would propose “PR person” as a reasonable synonym.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Spin is to public relations what manipulation is to interpersonal communications.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Lies are darned handy when the truth is something you dare not admit.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“This is all excellent advice, especially appropriate if you are trying to recover your reputation after an unfortunate accident.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“In court (and before you conclude that I am lawyer-bashing, I learned all this in law school myself, there is a convention that every accused person deserves the best possible defense, and it is the lawyer’s duty to mount that defense to the best of his or her ability. We have even grown to accept the idea that it’s acceptable to construct a case that is entirely – almost deceptively – one-sided, knowing that the lawyer on the other side will bring equal vigor to the case.)” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“What you cannot see is any evidence that anyone, at any time, asked whether what they were doing was right – whether, for example, the messages they were testing could have been incorrect and ultimately harmful.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Don’t corporations have have a responsibility to communicate in a way that is fair, and in the public interest?” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Environmental skeptics are not, as they portray themselves, independent and objective analysts. Rather, they are predominantly agents of conservative think tanks, and their success in promoting skepticism about environmental problems stems from their affiliation with these politically powerful institutions.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“The next IPCC report should give people the final push that they need to to take action and we can’t have people undermining it.” – quoted by John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“There was 100% consensus that global warming was not caused by natural climate variations.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Denying it was wrong. Delaying action is dangerous. People who say otherwise should, at some point in the very near future, have to stand accountable for their recklessness.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“There is a greater than 90% chance that our spaceship is going to crash” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Cooper makes outrageous accusations, saying that scientists are faking climate change so they can fleece governments for additional research funding.’ – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Cooper himself has benefited financially in oily investment in disinformation.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“I want to scream at the television: That’s not true! If Benny Peiser can’t find a single peer-reviewed article in any reputable science journal any time in the last fifteen years, if Lawrence Solomon can’t find even one well-qualified “denier” who in point of fact *denies* the human contribution to potentially dangerous climate change, well, this alleged scientific controversy can only be dismissed for what it is – a carefully constructed ruse to keep people from supporting the kinds of actions that will compromise the profit potential of ExxonMobile, the Western Fuels Association, and the American automakers, whose fortunes were shattered after they bet their futures on the continued gullibility of the SUV-buying public.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“As chair of the David Suzuki Foundation, I am gratified that environmental organizations have credibility. But that only covers one of my volunteer commitments. As the owner of a public relations company whose work come mostly from corporations, I began to wonder, if the public doesn’t trust corporations, what do they think about public relations people?” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“We need to reduce our carbon output by something close to 80% by 2030.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“You will be consuming a steady diet stories that suggest that some aspects of climate science are still in doubt.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“You should be hypervigilant.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“Join the neighborhood watch of those who people who no longer stand for disinformation to be passed around your social circle.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
“That’s what we need: vigilance. Eyes on the street.” – John Hoggan (“Climate Cover-Up”, 2009).
Idiot from NYC can’t even get people’s names correct. If he can’t even get such a simple thing as that correct anything else he claims must be equally wrong.
Why are deniers so ignorant of just about everything? He even claims to have a Ph D in chemistry. What a joke. Such dishonesty.
Since when is a typo “such dishonesty”? I was reading John Cook’s and James Hoggan’s books the same couple of days. Seriously, if you want to pin dishonesty on me, at least claim that the quotes are out of context and demonstrate why.
Damn this iPhone keyboard: I have to avoid typos or discussion ends with a typo! I made another one below, some pronoun if I remember.
Run lil’ doggie, there’s another bone below.
I’m being a bit mean, but no matter *what* I post that doesn’t exactly kowtow to the narrative of AGW results in exactly the same hog pile of bile, so there is little reward for one-sided civility here, and much cognitive dissonance resulting from it.
NikFromNYC:
Nonsense stated with civility is still nonsense. Perhaps that’s something you should’ve learnt at Columbia and Harvard.
— frank
I think you got banned because you were consistently failing the CAPTCHA, and probably for a good reason too.
— frank
I was just IP banned (leads to Google, my ex-girlfriend’s web site) for posting this to DeSmogBlog.com:
Did the banning slow you down a bit and make you ask yourself WHY you were banned?
Think about it. Please.
(No, I’m not kidding.)
Take your hand off the keyboard for a moment and ask yourself what you are doing.
Look at what you posted.
Look at it very carefully.
What possessed you to gather up those quotes in the first place? Do you see anybody else around here or on some other blog behaving in the same erratic manner as you?
Your behaviour is not rational. People do not interact with each other like this in normal society.
You need to talk to someone in the real world.
What you are doing is not good.
Because and only because factual posts result in extreme psychological abuse, I have changed strategies from one of debate to one of shaming and punk and graffiti inspired graphic art imagery, so you can have a nice look in the mirror, and others can see another way of viewing you too Just as Van Gogh showed the world how to better appreciate the beauty in the world, I will help them see what us ugly in it. That’s what contemporary art us all about: sticking it to the Establishment. Upsetting those who cling to moralistic doomsday religion. I’m just another scientifically trained artist, doing what I’m supposed to do. That’s not wrong. That’s fun and rebellious.
NikFromNYC:
Here’s something you’ll never get:
Real punk activists actually abide by some moral code, and refrain from doing things which are morally wrong.
You, on the other hand, have no morals, no conscience, nothing. You’re just an obnoxious goon.
— frank
Your training clearly failed. I’d ask my money back if I were you.
All hail the most famous AGW enthusiast of all, Dr. Charlie:
P.S. Stop making fools of yourselves calling a Columbia and Harvard man “stupid.” Seriously. It makes you sound like rednecks. I actually believe you mostly to be statist authoritarian hive minded kids, not to be despised but to be helped in some way I don’t yet have a handle on, to redirect your energy away from the tunnel vision that is AGW theory.
‘Stop making fools of yourselves calling a Columbia and Harvard man “stupid.”’
If it looks like a duck…
Well, that’s is, is it not?
‘Ooh,’ MikeN thinks to himself, ‘I went to Columbia and Harvard, therefore I am right and you are wrong!’
And so he closes his mind to the possibility that he might be wrong, and goes forth to spread the holy word of ‘AGW skeptic open-mindedness’.
— frank
s/MikeN/NikFromNYC/
# with apologies to MikeN, who actually uses his brain instead of his almæ matres
— frank
Did you miss any classes on philosophy of science, perhaps? No one with a PROPER science education would talk dismissively about something he himself calls a theory.
And you’re surprised we call you stupid…
Because and only because factual posts result in extreme psychological abuse…
Nobody has abused you.
Perhaps somebody touched you in your childhood but you can’t blame the internet for that.
Just as Van Gogh showed the world how to better appreciate the beauty in the world, I will help them see what us ugly in it.
You compare yourself to Van Gogh? Well, that’s a bit of a change I suppose. Most cranks compare themselves to Einstien or Galileo.
Upsetting those who cling to moralistic doomsday religion.
Science is not religion.
They work differently.
I’m just another scientifically trained artist, doing what I’m supposed to do. That’s not wrong. That’s fun and rebellious.
Posting video clips of Charles Manson and going “Yah boo! This is you” is not fun and rebellious. It’s just you embarrassing yourself.
Stop making fools of yourselves calling a Columbia and Harvard man “stupid.”
Your educational background is no vaccine against being mentally unbalanced. You may well have a bipolar disorder or suffer from depression or something like that. A mental is no laughing matter.
Your behaviour is not rational. People do not interact with each other like this in normal society.
You need to talk to someone in the real world.
What you are doing is not good.
Cedric said:
Just take a look at this video clip from Idiot from NYC to see how mentally unbalanced he is. It looks like he just escaped from the mental ward at a local institution.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NikFromNYC#p/a/u/2/Fy8jxWk_ztE
Just take a look at this video clip from Idiot from NYC to see how mentally unbalanced he is. It looks like he just escaped from the mental ward at a local institution.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NikFromNYC#p/a/u/2/Fy8jxWk_ztE
(…watches video…)
(….stunned silence…)
NikFromNYC, stop what you are doing.
Keep away from that damned building.
In fact, don’t drive and don’t handle sharp objects of any kind.
You need to talk to someone in the real world about your behaviour.
This is not a joke. I’m being very serious here.
Your behaviour is not rational.
See a doctor. Show them the video.
What you are doing is dangerous to both to yourself and to others. You need to talk to someone.
NOTE TO ALL OTHER POSTERS:
Please, please do not provoke NikFromNYC.
We are dealing with someone who clearly needs help. I know this is the internet and I know this could all be a hoax BUT let’s not take that risk.
If you have a chance to make a comment to anything that NikFromNYC might say, either here or on some other blog, do not aggravate the situation. Focus on Nik’s safety and mental health. We are dealing with a human being here. If you are aware of Nik posting on some other blog, immediately contact the moderator and show them the video. If you happen to be in a position to alert campus security personally, then please do so.
I’m the first to tear strips off the climate deniers with scathing wit, irony and cold, hard, science. I take no prisoners. Yet this situation is not normal trolling at all.
I’m no expert but NikFromNYC’s antics now seem to me more like a cry for help.
Please do the right thing.
“Ph.D. chemist (Columbia) who still lives by Columbia where I received the top student (Hammett) prior to spending there years at Harvard. Now I run a small business. ”
………I find that just a bit hard to believe…
OK folks, just spent a very frustrating time trying to alert someone in authority somewhere about this issue. Basically my own police are not interested in even looking at the video since it is not in their jurisdiction.
I tried to find any useful contact info for the NYPD OR youtube, but failed there as well,
What I have done is flag the video (link below vid on youtube) as “dangerous or harmful behaviour” & hope youtube has the brains to do more than delete the video. Others may want to do this as well.
If anyone is in NYC or knows anyone in NYC perhaps they would have more success in finding the right person or agency to alert about this.
Thanks to you folks for bringing this up and caring.
why do you want to censor comedy? Can’t you enjoy letting an idiot embarass himself and use that to discredit deniers?
I don’t think we are dealing with an idiot.
We are dealing with someone who is putting themselves and others in harm’s way.
This person is mentally unstable.
They deserve nothing but compassion and protection.
It’s fine to embarass the climate deniers. Discredit their dumb arguments as much as you want and I will back you up with extra material. No problem. There’s a rich field out there.
Yet don’t let your justifiable ire at the dunces smother your desire to do the right thing. Anybody can become mentally ill for a variety of reasons. (You, me, a loved one, a stranger.) They need help and understanding. They cannot care for themselves or defend their own human dignity. They are still people, not objects for our amusement.
A society is judged by how it treats it’s weakest members.
Well said Cedric. I’ll take your word for it as I didn’t get a chance to see the video. It has been removed from Youtube with the comment “This video has been removed as a violation of YouTube’s policy on depiction of harmful activities.” I wonder if anything else will result.
Guys,
I can’t play a youtube video on my dial-up and I don’t see how recent this is, but I trust your judgment that he might be a danger to himself or others. Where is the blog administrator? I’ll attempt to contact him by email, since he needs to provide any information he has via the IP service or directly to police for assistance.
Nik, there is concern that your behaviour is not safe and that you might need assistance. If you have a doctor or you can talk with a friend or family member to help you speak with a doctor or mental health worker about how you’re feeling, that would be good and we would like you to do that.
This
is what
they really
want to do
to all the remaining mountains
we have left, just to vainly display the crosses’
and monstrous sunset sunrise flickering shadows
of their sacrificial doomsday religion,
access roads and
power lines
included.
Nik, hello.
Many people are concerned about hazards to birds but the information you cite is not an accurate depiction of the total situaton. Bird deaths are mostly attributable to older turbine models and to ignoring factors that should not be ignored e.g. habitat/migratory patterns; and there will continue to be some bird deaths from newer turbines and better location of turbines, but frankly, nothing compared to the number killed by automobiles, oil spills – or climate change.
There are lots of opportunities to be involved in protecting birds and animals but internet beliefs that repeat myths really don’t help.
What is shown in the linked photos is mostly the result of the lack of commitment in the U.S. rather than to making wind power part of the package of sustainable energy use: states do not have laws requiring the removal of abandoned wind-fuelled turbines from the land, and do not negotiate projects or provide sufficient resources to lead the best projects with current knowledge and the most ethical practices (for people and wildlife). 😦
Far more than a few birds are killed, and there’s far more devastation than a slight to skylines in the increasingly insane hunt for oil. Take, for instance, Athabasca, the (still ongoing but largely vanished from the media’s radar) troubles in the Mexican Gulf.
We’ve already got ‘observable, dramatic, immediate’. The problem, it seems, is too many differing viewpoints.
wow, very nice of you to care about birds.
There are past problems with wind energy projects that are fair to note. See my comment above. Nik can take it from there with his good internet skills if he wants. Otherwise, I agree — it just becomes a climate change denier myth repeated without thinking.
cheers
Hey man, post more!
It’s embarrassing trying to come up with this or that witty excuse to post my own content here, based on topical commentary.
So, with sincere compassion for all y’all, I present my latest panicky glance at the logarithmic plot of the stock market:
-=NikFromNYC=- (former “Monkey Wrench Gang” enthusiast)
Wow…
I’m late to Greenfyre’s thread and I missed that video, but NfNY is clearly an unhinged person. I note that he appeared to have been removed from other blogs on which he has recently posted, which is a Good Thing – I hope that his presence here, as toxic as it is, might remain though as an example of the boy’s state of mind.
Now, back to the subject…
I am of the mind that anyone who has ever heard about global warming and climate change has already consciously acted. The spectrum of action is large: some will have completely altered their lives, while others will have made large changes, or resolved to think about doing something at some unspecified time in the future, or decided to ignore it altogether, or simply refused (on no rational basis) to believe what they are being told, or actively campaigned against mitigation because it challenges their ideology and/or profits.
Each of these things is an action. The problem is the size and direction of the sum consequence of all of our collective actions. The question is whether we can alter our actions in the light of the information is provided to us by science.
To paraphrase a favourite saying of one of my friends, it is not a matter of “can” or “can’t”, it is a matter of “will” or “won’t”.
We can – and we should – but I suspect that we won’t until it is too late.
“NfNY is clearly an unhinged person. I note that he appeared to have been removed from other blogs on which he has recently posted, which is a Good Thing”
You slipped into fascism:
(1) My opponent is crazy.
(2) My opponent’s expressiveness should be censored.
“Now, back to the subject…”
Now, back to group-think.
For the record I am a Ring-of-Fire brand of ADD minor Asperger’s current heavy drinker and major bookworm. I love Manhattan so much for it offers so much stimulation, that my “pay attention to something else now!!!” itch or two every three seconds is drowned out into a background of bliss and old books, canyons of buildings flowing with rivers of beautiful people, on an island with the lowest per capita automobile ownership of any US city, powered by a zero emission nuke plant up the Hudson River.
Alas, don’t listen to me. It’s back to us-vs.-them war for you.
Back to hatred.
Dude, I’m not running for President, so don’t treat me like I am. Your mind has attached itself to old circuits.
Tonight’s delight:
Vermeer of Delft.
I do not sincerely and honestly know how to create a world vision for fallen greenies.
I think it lies in psychedelic drugs.
This is a good book:
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Brain-God-Timothy-Leary/dp/1579510523/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308794144&sr=8-1
You guys lost your edge.
GET IT BACK!
-=NikFromNYC=- (Ph.D. in Synthetic Chemistry).
One synthesis too many…
Remember that old world liberalism was a powerful force, in a real debate, not a cultural war, once the Democrats took off their “labor party” white hoods to see the light of day for a moment or two, historically.
Adenoid Hynkel (dictator of Tomania): “Soldiers: Don’t give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you, enslave you, who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think and what to feel; who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don’t give yourselves to these unnatural men, machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don’t hate; only the unloved hate, the unloved and the unnatural.
Soldiers: Don’t fight for slavery! Fight for liberty! In the seventeenth chapter of Saint Luke it is written, “the kingdom of God is within man” — not one man, nor a group of men, but in all men, in you, you the people have the power, the power to create machines, the power to create happiness. You the people have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.
Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power! Let us all unite!! Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give you the future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie! They do not fulfill their promise; they never will. Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people!! Now, let us fight to fulfill that promise!! Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness.”
I see that NikFromNYC continues to carpet-bomb this blog with bullshit.
— frank
(reposted, previous posting stuck in moderation)
I see that NikFromNYC is still carpet-bombing this blog with bullshit.
— frank
Since y’all ain’t watched Das Boot, a movie, you painstakingly now promote a mistaken crooked-elbow geek anti-paradise, fellow fat-ass comrade breeder buffoons, all around and two times flat.
Oh look! Nerd Town Paradise.
“I could live there!”
Say you.
Do not let intuition or love to enter onto your heart!
Old fart.
That would not be “smart.”
Shame is painted on you, useless worker bee, and grand pappie.
Voting about the weather?
This wont even go down in history.
Huh.
More than one synthesis too many.
“STEAL THIS BULB!” I must in classic Yippie fashion politely note the loophole futility of Edison bulb prohibition for your due consideration.
There are already available luxurious excluded-from-the-ban versions of real bulbs which cost only about double of already penny cheap standard ones, namely “100W rough service” bulbs that have beefier filaments and are thus *less* efficient than standard bulbs.
Ooh la la, back to business, rough service Bachelor.
This loophole will be outed soon if the ban bans, as prohibition mints blissful rebellion, Edison becoming subversively cool, energy drain big beefy SUVs, status symbols: rebellion ‘gainst green nanny statism.
HOSPITAL BILL:
(ii) EXCLUSIONS.—The term ‘general service incandescent lamp’ does not include the following incandescent lamps:
(XII) A rough service lamp.
Search Amazon.com for: 100W rough service.
Of rested case, lads and gentiles, I dutifully present…drum roll…the Nobel life of Randy Man Minus Wife:
Tobacco farmer Gore’s six-fireplace palace: http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/05/exclusive-estimate-carbon-footprint-of.html
And “BIO-solar” jet ski launch (and bachelor) pad yacht: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19PAXEzx1Uo
Belief in AGW go bye bye:

Very convincing, Nik.
Now, let’s see a poll about evolution:
Click to access Harris-Interactive-Poll-Research-BBC-Darwin-2009-02.pdf
I guess that shows the Theory of Evolution is dead, no? At least in Nik’s logic…